Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

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Backfire

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 7:12 pm

STEVE F wrote:I sent this entire thread to SOM support. This was there response:

Hi Steve,



There is no truth to that whatsoever - there is no normalization going on that affects players or teams based on what they happen to be on pace for. There are no hidden mechanisms designed to achieve any sort of unexplained agenda. There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that.



Sincerely,
Strat-O-Matic 365
https://365.strat-o-matic.com
'

If you would be so kind, please post here a screenshot of the email, with the time stamp, so we can all clearly see that it was an official response from Strat-O-Matic.

"There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that." How about a community of several decade veterans annihilating new players to the point where they just quit and the profitability of the company nosedives? I went to the world series in my first season, my brother went to playoffs his first season. Sounds normal? Two completely new players can join up and defeat some of the strongest players in history with little-to-no knowledge of the player pool, nor the use of any helpful tools or websites.
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djmacb

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 8:08 pm

Backfire wrote:If you would be so kind, please post here a screenshot of the email, with the time stamp, so we can all clearly see that it was an official response from Strat-O-Matic.

"There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that." How about a community of several decade veterans annihilating new players to the point where they just quit and the profitability of the company nosedives? I went to the world series in my first season, my brother went to playoffs his first season. Sounds normal? Two completely new players can join up and defeat some of the strongest players in history with little-to-no knowledge of the player pool, nor the use of any helpful tools or websites.

Fair request Backfire. How about if you also post links to the leagues that you and your brother participated in? The conspiracy theorist should be held to the same standard.
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STEVE F

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 8:09 pm

Re: Is there any truth to this?

You forwarded this message on Tue 8/16/2022 11:38 PM
You forwarded this message on Tue 8/16/2022 11:38 PM
3
365support@strat-o-matic.com
To:You
Tue 8/16/2022 11:11 PM
Start reply with:
Hi Steve,



There is no truth to that whatsoever - there is no normalization going on that affects players or teams based on what they happen to be on pace for. There are no hidden mechanisms designed to achieve any sort of unexplained agenda. There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that.



Sincerely,
Strat-O-Matic 365
https://365.strat-o-matic.com
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STEVE F

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 8:11 pm

I can copy and paste, screen shot won't paste here. I have 2 good friends who are avid conspiracy theorists, and if there's one thing I know about them, it's that they don't give up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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MaxPower

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 10:09 pm

Backfire wrote:"There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that." How about a community of several decade veterans annihilating new players to the point where they just quit and the profitability of the company nosedives? I went to the world series in my first season, my brother went to playoffs his first season. Sounds normal? Two completely new players can join up and defeat some of the strongest players in history with little-to-no knowledge of the player pool, nor the use of any helpful tools or websites.

Except no one has ever explained how "normalization" would benefit new players.
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STEVE F

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 10:17 pm

I saw a cat open a door with it's paws once, thus proving that it was a raccoon.
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Backfire

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 10:19 pm

STEVE F wrote:Re: Is there any truth to this?

You forwarded this message on Tue 8/16/2022 11:38 PM
You forwarded this message on Tue 8/16/2022 11:38 PM
3
365support@strat-o-matic.com
To:You
Tue 8/16/2022 11:11 PM
Start reply with:
Hi Steve,



There is no truth to that whatsoever - there is no normalization going on that affects players or teams based on what they happen to be on pace for. There are no hidden mechanisms designed to achieve any sort of unexplained agenda. There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that.



Sincerely,
Strat-O-Matic 365
https://365.strat-o-matic.com


Thanks for trying. It's pretty easy though, just hit "print screen" (might appear different on your keyboard), and then you should be able to paste it here or into your basic paint program. Not especially familiar with these forums so let me know if you get stuck.

As for conspiracy theories, one thing that is usually considered is that a party stands to profit should the theories be true. That is definitely the case here. I know all too well as I am a video game developer in a game that has a similar issue, there is a vet-heavy player pool that can handily defeat the new players and they typically will just quit. It's not the greatest business model, clearly. All they have to do is make adjustments to the way the game works and the profit will dramatically increase and the business model is stable. Logically, I'm sure you can understand why this is so.

Furthermore, the game is heavily based on math and most people are terrible at math. That by default puts them at a large disadvantage, especially as a new player. Do you think that in a league rolled in the real world (board game) with 6 veterans and 6 new players, the new players would stand a chance? I really don't believe they would. It seems like in the online version of the game, almost regardless of how bad a team is it will still get at least 50 wins.

djmacb wrote:
Backfire wrote:If you would be so kind, please post here a screenshot of the email, with the time stamp, so we can all clearly see that it was an official response from Strat-O-Matic.

"There's not even a reason we can see for us to do anything like that." How about a community of several decade veterans annihilating new players to the point where they just quit and the profitability of the company nosedives? I went to the world series in my first season, my brother went to playoffs his first season. Sounds normal? Two completely new players can join up and defeat some of the strongest players in history with little-to-no knowledge of the player pool, nor the use of any helpful tools or websites.

Fair request Backfire. How about if you also post links to the leagues that you and your brother participated in? The conspiracy theorist should be held to the same standard.


Gladly! I have nothing to hide, after all. You should note that this is now an old league and the best players may be different now, I have been gone a long time and no longer have a good feel for the scene. But at a glance, I see nevdully's, the last druid (formerly petrosian), jet40, Dr. Biocide, and some other players with high win rates.

https://365.strat-o-matic.com/league/12377

Last thing: I have heard about a CD-ROM version of the game that has various league settings and one is normalization. Can anyone confirm or elaborate on this?
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djmacb

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:00 pm

Backfire wrote:Gladly! I have nothing to hide, after all. You should note that this is now an old league and the best players may be different now, I have been gone a long time and no longer have a good feel for the scene. But at a glance, I see nevdully's, the last druid (formerly petrosian), jet40, Dr. Biocide, and some other players with high win rates.

https://365.strat-o-matic.com/league/12377

Last thing: I have heard about a CD-ROM version of the game that has various league settings and one is normalization. Can anyone confirm or elaborate on this?

That's a really nice team you put together. Most newbies don't know to put all their money into their starting lineup and only use cheap subs, but you did. Similarly, most newbies don't understand the overriding importance of matching their players to their park, but you selected only fast, high average, high OBP players for Forbes. You clearly got it. So with that being said, I'm not sure what your point is. You clearly had a better team than Nevdully's who beat you in the finals. Perhaps the "normalization" went the other way, to benefit Nev? But that wouldn't fit with your theory that the game company has implemented some black box code to favor newbies.

The CD version has a maximum rule "Improve Statistical Accuracy" that can be toggled on or off. I pasted the help file for this rule below. The lore is this switch was on early in the on line game - ATG1 or ATG2 - but was turned off by Sporting News when a group of gamers complained and demonstrated its existence. Demonstrating any black box effects is currently lacking in all of the conspiracy theory message board posts. Perusal of the ATG records that show multiple 100 HR and .430+ seasons pretty much confirms this switch is not on now.

This option improves overall statistical accuracy and realism. A number of adjustments are made to accomplish this. Strat-O-Matic does not publish a complete list of these changes for competitive reasons.

DESCRIPTION OF TYPICAL IMPROVEMENTS FOR STATISTICAL ACCURACY

Since this option is somewhat of a "black box" you may not feel comfortable using it. We have made this a separate option so that you can shut it off if you feel this way.

So you can get a better idea of the type of things that are being done, here is one example of an adjustment that is used if you select this option:

Both George Brett and Roger Maris experienced tremendous pressure while chasing major statistical achievements. Brett was unable to hit .400, while Maris endured just enough to hit the magical 61 homerun mark. But even for Maris, the pressure was so great that he was losing his hair down the stretch. To improve the realism of our game we mimic the tremendous pressure that players experience during attempts at setting these marks.

If a batter comes down the stretch run of a season either challenging the .400 mark or the home run record then this option will make it harder for him to reach that milestone. Use of this option does not preclude him from reaching the mark, but the pressure does affect his performance and makes it more difficult to reach it.

Again, this option is not for everyone. If you want a totally exposed game system then you will definitely not want to use this option. But if you like the idea that we have taken the time to account for the nuances of baseball (as shown in the above example) then you may wish to use this option.
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Backfire

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostWed Aug 17, 2022 11:58 pm

STEVE F wrote:I saw a cat open a door with it's paws once, thus proving that it was a raccoon.


With over 4000 posts under your belt, this is the best you can come up with. So far you have added nothing to this discussion other than rudeness and an alleged email. I hope it is real and look forward to seeing it with my own two eyes.

By the way you're talking here it seems that the notion of using a financially beneficial business model is a fairy tale to you. Have you not noticed the widespread corruption that exists in the world? Practically every company is about making a profit, that is the number one goal and you should be careful before thinking businessmen will not commit unscrupulous practices.

Furthermore, pattern recognition is a skill and one that you do not seem to possess. If you can't detect any abnormalities after playing this game for as long as I assume you have, that is very bizarre. Why do you think it is that many of the best players of all time disagree with you? "Oh, it's all conspiracy theories like an alien invasion. Har, har, har!" And for the record, no, I am not including myself among the greatest players.

djmacb wrote:
Backfire wrote:Gladly! I have nothing to hide, after all. You should note that this is now an old league and the best players may be different now, I have been gone a long time and no longer have a good feel for the scene. But at a glance, I see nevdully's, the last druid (formerly petrosian), jet40, Dr. Biocide, and some other players with high win rates.

https://365.strat-o-matic.com/league/12377

Last thing: I have heard about a CD-ROM version of the game that has various league settings and one is normalization. Can anyone confirm or elaborate on this?

That's a really nice team you put together. Most newbies don't know to put all their money into their starting lineup and only use cheap subs, but you did. Similarly, most newbies don't understand the overriding importance of matching their players to their park, but you selected only fast, high average, high OBP players for Forbes. You clearly got it. So with that being said, I'm not sure what your point is. You clearly had a better team than Nevdully's who beat you in the finals. Perhaps the "normalization" went the other way, to benefit Nev? But that wouldn't fit with your theory that the game company has implemented some black box code to favor newbies.

The CD version has a maximum rule "Improve Statistical Accuracy" that can be toggled on or off. I pasted the help file for this rule below. The lore is this switch was on early in the on line game - ATG1 or ATG2 - but was turned off by Sporting News when a group of gamers complained and demonstrated its existence. Demonstrating any black box effects is currently lacking in all of the conspiracy theory message board posts. Perusal of the ATG records that show multiple 100 HR and .430+ seasons pretty much confirms this switch is not on now.

This option improves overall statistical accuracy and realism. A number of adjustments are made to accomplish this. Strat-O-Matic does not publish a complete list of these changes for competitive reasons.

DESCRIPTION OF TYPICAL IMPROVEMENTS FOR STATISTICAL ACCURACY

Since this option is somewhat of a "black box" you may not feel comfortable using it. We have made this a separate option so that you can shut it off if you feel this way.

So you can get a better idea of the type of things that are being done, here is one example of an adjustment that is used if you select this option:

Both George Brett and Roger Maris experienced tremendous pressure while chasing major statistical achievements. Brett was unable to hit .400, while Maris endured just enough to hit the magical 61 homerun mark. But even for Maris, the pressure was so great that he was losing his hair down the stretch. To improve the realism of our game we mimic the tremendous pressure that players experience during attempts at setting these marks.

If a batter comes down the stretch run of a season either challenging the .400 mark or the home run record then this option will make it harder for him to reach that milestone. Use of this option does not preclude him from reaching the mark, but the pressure does affect his performance and makes it more difficult to reach it.

Again, this option is not for everyone. If you want a totally exposed game system then you will definitely not want to use this option. But if you like the idea that we have taken the time to account for the nuances of baseball (as shown in the above example) then you may wish to use this option.


My point is that I made the world series as a new player. I am an extremely competitive person and worked very hard on that team. Despite that, I don't believe I should have made it that far in that pool of players. In fact, I think it's somewhat ridiculous. The amount of skill involved in this game is extremely fast. However, conversely, I did have a friend in my division who was also new and he built a very poor team. So I probably benefited from that. He did get iirc 56 wins though, and while he is a great guy, he is not particularly gifted with math and I highly doubt he put much thought into his team or even cared. I don't believe he should have gotten as many wins as he did. It seems that the game will hand everyone a certain number of wins, regardless of how bad their team is. Am I wrong? What are the lowest win teams you've seen in your leagues in the past year? I am genuinely curious.

So, here is the part I find most confusing of all. Every time this topic comes up on the forums there is a group of people that fervently deny the existence of normalization and act like anyone that mentions it is wearing a tinfoil hat. But, they fail to mention the existence of these "black box features" in the history of the game, as well as them being turned on in the early days. Do you know what that sounds like to me? It sounds like they're hiding the FACTS and trying to bully people off the forums. Speaking of which, I have been contacted by other players who are on my side yet none of them want to post here and it's not a surprise why. Not only is it a waste of their time but an exercise in futility as nothing will change and they will be met with ridicule. I am not referring to you, btw. Just stating my general observation of how these things play out. With that said, I want to thank you for enlightening me on some things and I have no issue with your responses.
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Palmtana

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Re: Normalization: A Humble Request to Strat-O-Matic

PostThu Aug 18, 2022 12:43 am

Steve F, thanks for your initiative.

Backfire, Steve F is bona fide. Scratch the validity of his reply from SOM concerning normalization (or statistical accuracy as djmacb quoted from the help file) off of your worry list.

Maxpower, given the topic I probably won't have to sticky this thread. But if it drops down the page I will do so.
I have no bone in the debate but, given SOM's statement, it would be interesting to hear from some of those who believe that normalization is turned on. If I'm not mistaken.....nevdully....salty....egvrich....
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