ATG 8 Card Pricing

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RiggoDrill

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostTue Aug 06, 2019 10:51 am

egvrich wrote:Example: Ryne Duren - Raise his price to let's say 4.5 million. If usage doesn't decrease, raise it to 5.0 million. If usage still doesn't decrease, raise it to 5.5 million. If that's the magic number where his usage slows down, then the community has set the market.

Glad you brought up Ryne Duren :shock: Duren's price is a result of data loading error. He was priced as an RP, however, SOM neglected to remove his SP rating when inserting the record to the database (Joel Pineiro and others, same situation). As an SP, he's under-priced by about 2.00M. Because of pricing errors like this, the game is largely a contest to see who can collect the most SOM pricing "mistakes."

There are also structural issues with pricing of the cards - fixing that would address many of the concerns listed earlier in this thread.

ATG8 salaries really are a mess and it affects the competitive quality of the game.
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egvrich

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostTue Aug 06, 2019 2:08 pm

RiggoDrill wrote:Glad you brought up Ryne Duren :shock: Duren's price is a result of data loading error. He was priced as an RP, however, SOM neglected to remove his SP rating when inserting the record to the database (Joel Pineiro and others, same situation). As an SP, he's under-priced by about 2.00M. Because of pricing errors like this, the game is largely a contest to see who can collect the most SOM pricing "mistakes."

There are also structural issues with pricing of the cards - fixing that would address many of the concerns listed earlier in this thread.

ATG8 salaries really are a mess and it affects the competitive quality of the game.


Pineiro started 11 games in 2001 and appeared as a reliever in 6 more according to baseball-reference.com, so he legitimately should be a starter/reliever.

Duren on the other hand, started a whopping ONE GAME in 1958 while appearing in 43 as a reliever, so I would agree he should be strictly a reliever.
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RiggoDrill

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostTue Aug 06, 2019 8:11 pm

RE: Pineiro - I stand corrected. Should have checked B-R.com more closely.

That's actually an even worse knock on the salary structure. Pineiro would be fairly priced at 6.96. No excuses at all - they just had no idea what they were doing. :roll:
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The Last Druid

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostTue Aug 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Riggo Drill is correct re the pricing of Duren and Pineiro; rburgh is simply off the reservation with the pricing of those two. Henry and Heredia are the next two pitchers who desperately need repricing. Then Atley Donald and several of the other pitchers in his price range are also seriously undervalued. Rueter and the 1.32 Sutton also need to be repriced. Among the starters, I don't think that many need to be reduced in price. Pricing also does not need to be absolutely precise, discovering good values is an integral part of the game. However, when the same players become critical autodraft priorities, particularly the guys mentioned above at lower caps, then the game suffers and becomes something no one intended it to be - no one with half a brain at any rate.

There are a couple of significant problems with usage based models. A lot of the top players may well be reasonably priced but are popular just because they are real all time greats. Think Ruth, Mays, Williams etc. Usage based pricing would unfairly impact these guys. But the bigger obstacle is getting Strat to do the work to create usage based pricing. No way that happens with Richman still at the helm. That is why I proposed changing the pricing on 25 players each time players get added to ATG. It is a simple, quick and dirty fix with long reaching positive repercussions for the integrity of the game without being labor intensive for SOM and thus cost prohibitive.
Last edited by The Last Druid on Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sjudd

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostWed Aug 07, 2019 2:36 pm

I will reiterate that a 25 card reprice is high value / low effort and I think Strat should make it a priority. It immediately makes the game more playable/enjoyable while discussion about complete set repricing continues.
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bkeat23

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostWed Aug 07, 2019 9:14 pm

sjudd wrote:I will reiterate that a 25 card reprice is high value / low effort and I think Strat should make it a priority. It immediately makes the game more playable/enjoyable while discussion about complete set repricing continues.


The entire set reprice would be a million times more time consuming than keeping up with a Blog on these boards. Ok, maybe only 100,000 times?
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rcf23

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostFri Aug 09, 2019 1:32 am

ATG 8 post WW2 DH Rule now filling. League is called "Savages in the Box"
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FrankieT

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 10:23 am

Great discussion. Before embarking..let me say yes--fix the mistakes. But..in general:

I realize SOM online is its own separate game that in some ways hardly resembles Strat-o-Matic. Once of those ways is the pricing obviously, which is a uniquely SOMO thing.

Anything that alters the fundamentals of SOM I generally don't favor, unless it is necessary to function.
The cards are designed to reproduce the season of record as accurately as possible--they are not designed for SOMO use.

I think making individualized treatments of cards is a mistake. The example of pricing a Gates Brown card based on usage assumptions unique to that card, will not improve SOMO. The pricing would then not be normalized, so statistically would be a mess...and a moving target.

It also raises questions of where to draw the line for such an individualized approach. All players get an individualized approach? If not, what is the threshold? And then how do you approach each card you decide to treat discretely vs in a normalized, bulk fashion?

Part of the fun of SOM and SOMO is using players in ways they weren't used in real life...or, equivalently, ways in which their card was not designed for. Take that away and we may as well roll a two sided die with a W or L and call it a day. Yes, hyperbole, but that seems to me the destination with many of these pursuits for perfection. Imperfection creates interesting scenarios.

If extreme or waning interest in cards is a problem, add or remove some from the set. And at that time, reprice them all based on a normalized set of assumptions that apply to all.

Aiming for a bunch of 81-81 leagues is no fun. And that's what perfectly managed equality looks like. Zero degrees of freedom, maximum equity. Oh, and impossible to reach anyway.
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FrankieT

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 10:27 am

The Last Druid wrote: Pricing also does not need to be absolutely precise, discovering good values is an integral part of the game. However, when the same players become critical autodraft priorities, particularly the guys mentioned above at lower caps, then the game suffers and becomes something no one intended it to be - no one with half a brain at any rate.

There are a couple of significant problems with usage based models. A lot of the top players may well be reasonably priced but are popular just because they are real all time greats. Think Ruth, Mays, Williams etc. Usage based pricing would unfairly impact these guys. But the bigger obstacle is getting Strat to do the work to create usage based pricing. No way that happens with Richman still at the helm. That is why I proposed changing the pricing on 25 players each time players get added to ATG. It is a simple, quick and dirty fix with long reaching positive repercussions for the integrity of the game without being labor intensive for SOM and thus cost prohibitive.


What he said. Exactly.
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FrankieT

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Re: ATG 8 Card Pricing

PostSat Aug 17, 2019 10:30 am

sjudd wrote:I will reiterate that a 25 card reprice is high value / low effort and I think Strat should make it a priority. It immediately makes the game more playable/enjoyable while discussion about complete set repricing continues.


Yes.
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