Shortstops 18.1

Discussion for new cards to add; moderated by Rosie2167

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honestiago

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostSat Jan 20, 2018 8:01 pm

andycummings65 wrote:
MICHAELCHIOLINO wrote:1956 Harvey Kuenn .332


He’d be a SS-3e24. Would he get used as a SS?


I've used his current 3-rated SS several times. Good value for 1.28. Not sure a more expensive 3-rating would help. If you're going to spend, say, 4-6M, you can likely find similar production and better defense.

On that: Cheap SS's rated 3 with some offense would be attractive, since you could get production at a bargain rate. Same thing with 3-rated 2B.
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honestiago

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostSat Jan 20, 2018 8:26 pm

Granny Hamner, `52, decent power numbers, and according to WAR, was good defensively (not sure about Strat). Would likely be a usable, cheaper bat (low walks). His '54 card is great, but he was primarily a 2B that year.
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djp_77

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 7:02 pm

Mark Belanger 1971 - 1e18
I know the 1969 has been mentioned but he is a 2e26 that season.

Travis Jackson 1930 - 1e42
Would be a better card from him and he can hit righties.

Dave Bancroft 1925 - 2e53
It would be his best card.
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Rosie2167

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 5:18 pm

Any opinions on Peckinpaugh?

His 1925 season was nominated, which is his MVP year. But his 1919 season is his best offensive year.
1919: 305/390/404/794/123 OPS+/6.3 WAR
1925: 294/367/379/746/91 OPS+/2.6 WAR

I appreciate a side goal of ours to have all the MVPs and CYs in the set, but these early MVPs are a funny bunch due to the fact prior winners were ineligible.
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george barnard

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 5:35 pm

As much as the 1919 card would be tempting, I do think that the goal of having all the MVPs and Cy Youngs, no matter how bizarre the voting rules might have been, should be attempted. Peckinpaugh was honored for his leadership above all (I know...that doesn't translated into dice rolls) and he would certainly not be the only MVP that we in the temporal distance scratch our heads at. I would be worried that once the 1919 card got in, then there would be no impetus to get the '25 card in. Look at the catchers' MVPs waiting to get in (two Berras, two Campys, Cochrane, Hartnett, Munson, Howard) all with multiple cards -- some much better than their MVP years -- but they may never get in because people will say, "Ah, but we already have x number of cards for him".
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BDWard

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostWed Jan 24, 2018 10:11 pm

While I generally agree with the proposition that it would be nice to have all cards based on award winning seasons such as MVP, Cy Young and ROY, I don't believe that such will EVER be accomplished in the current card add format, unless SOM decides to add such cards en masse. Moreover, such awards evolved over time and were not given in the early years of baseball. Further, as Rosie reminded us, players were not allowed to win more than 1 MVP award in the early years of the award, meaning that even if a former winner was deserving of the award, the rules prevented him from getting it, with the award going to an arguably less deserving player.

In addition, the underlying assumption behind issuing cards for award winning seasons is that it should be a GOOD card. While such may be true, in some cases, and in Peckinpaugh's case in particular, it won't necessarily be the player's BEST card. Bill correctly notes that in the current card adding process, there seems to be a bias against a player having TOO MANY cards. While acknowledging that Peckinpaugh's 1919 card would likely be superior to his 1925 card, Bill is legitimately concerned that adding a player's superior non-MVP card would lessen the incentive to later add the arguably inferior MVP card. The reasoning goes something like this: "We already have the player's best card. Why do we need another card for that player when there are only a limited number of new cards added when we can add the best card of another player?" However, for those concerned with a player having too many cards at the expense of other deserving players, a converse argument against adding the superior card can be made if the MVP card is added.

As noted elsewhere in this forum, I generally strongly prefer to add the best available card of a player. During previous new card adds, in some circumstances the community voted to add cards not representative of a player's best season and not only do those cards barely get used, but they are taking up a spot that could be used for a better player. Good examples of such are Charles Johnson, who had his 1997 card (.250 19 63 .347 .454) added instead of his far superior 2000 card (.304 31 91 .379 .582), which would have given the White Sox a badly needed Expansion Era catcher, and 2010 Jose Bautista (.260 54 124 .378 .617 .995) instead of his superior 2011 card (.302 43 103 .447 .608 1.056), which also would have more greatly benefited the Expansion Era Blue Jays.

While it is a laudable goal to add all of the cards for award seasons, as noted above, in the current card add format, it will take forever to add all of such cards, even if one assumes that such would be voted in by the community, which is not guaranteed. I say give the community the opportunity to vote on the best card for a player now, and leave it up to SOM to make a special add of cards for players with award winning other seasons.

Let's vote on the 1919 Peckinpaugh, as that is the better card compared to his 1925 MVP season.
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george barnard

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 3:43 am

It's hard to argue with Bernie's arguments -- it is always a pleasure to see such well-reasoned writing! While I am sympathetic with what he puts forward -- after all, who wouldn't want Peckinpaugh's best season? --on the other hand, I am at times in tune with Andy's argument that the best card is not always representative of a particular player. Peckinpaugh's 1919 season was in one sense an outlier for him...which is not to say that it didn't exist and that we should ignore it. By all means, bring it in and bring it on! But the '25 season is slightly better than Peckinpaugh's norms: for the most part, his ops+ ranged from the 70s to the 90s. His career ops+ is 86, '25 is 91, '19 is 123. Even with the strange MvP rules in place at the time, Peckinpaugh did beat out Simmons, Sewell and Heilmann, whose stats were far from being chopped liver. The last argument I would place before you is, even considering the relative weakness of the deadball Yankees, the addition of the '19 Peckinpaugh would 1/reinforce one of the only positions that the db Yankees can really use (along with Ruth) and 2/would reinforce the Yankees period. Do we really want that?, he said half-jokingly... ;)

But again, I would have no problem with voting on the '19 card.
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PATRICKCASSIDY

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostMon Jan 29, 2018 9:00 pm

Andre Rogers, any year, '62,3,4 (prefer '62, will settle)
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djp_77

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostTue Jan 30, 2018 4:47 pm

1908 Pop Lloyd. Hits better than current card. Is a 1e76. Not sure how much strat will adjust the errors.
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ratioman2

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Re: Shortstops 18.1

PostTue Jan 30, 2018 6:24 pm

e76?! I would hope for a major adjustment. e76 certainly doesn't match this write up of him on MLB.com

No one could match him with the glove at shortstop. In fact, Lloyd earned the nickname, "The Shovel," because he could field tough groundballs out of the dirt. And there was no better hitter than Lloyd, for he has the highest career batting average (.368) in Negro League history.

Admired by many, Lloyd received perhaps the greatest compliment from Baseball Hall of Famer Honus Wagner, for whom Lloyd was often compared to. After watching Lloyd play in an exhibition game, Wagner was quoted in The Sporting News' Daguerreotypes as saying, "After I saw him, I felt honored that they should name such a great ballplayer after me."
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